All right. What is up? Everybody is me drew Manning your host of the fit To fat to fit experience podcast. I appreciate you guys tuning in again for another great episode here on the podcast. Um, I appreciate you guys tuning in each and every week. Um, I feel like, you know, since 2017 has launched, there’s been such a wide variety of people that I’ve had on. I mean, yes, this is a health and fitness podcast, but I like to mix it up. You know, I’ve had, you know, celebrities on I’ve had actors on, I’ve had people, you know, from the UFC on. So it’s not always about health and nutrition and fitness and meal plans and workouts. And, um, I like to mix it up. And, uh, today, man, I’ve been wanting to meet this guy for a while. Cause I heard about him from, or I heard about his company first through Tim Ferris, it’s called four Sigmatic as these medicinal mushrooms.

Right. And I’m like, what is this stuff? And so I decided to order some on Amazon actually. And, uh, it was really cool cause I got connected to the owner through a mutual friend of mine and asked him if he’d come on my podcast. And sometimes, you know, you know, when I have people come on the podcast, it’s just kind of like, okay, let’s see if they say no. And for the most part, everybody said, yes, I’d have asked to come on the podcast. No one said no. So anyways, um, Tara is the owner and operator of and creator of four Sigmatic. Um, these, uh, supplemental mushrooms basically, um, and he takes these mushrooms and he made them to this product. The, that are amazing. That’s blown up like wildfire. You hear about these, uh, forcing medic on all kinds of podcasts now, uh, sponsoring, sponsoring podcasts.

So I wanted to get him on to pick his brain a little bit about his background and why he decided to create this product, how he creates this product and why these products are so amazing. So we kind of dive into the science behind them and he’s got a really cool story. So I think he has, we really like him. He’s a 13th generation farmer from Finland, uh, but he lives in LA now and we had a very, very interesting talk. I think you guys will really enjoy this and, and who knows maybe as a little trout, some of his mushrooms, uh, but if you do a, make sure you use my code, uh, foursigmatic.com forward slash fit for 10% off of these, um, magic mushrooms is what I call them. So, alright. Um, but first let’s get a shout out from our show sponsors.

This episode is brought to you by D and X bars. These meat bars are available on Amazon prime. You can go check them out. D N D as in Delta, in, as in Nancy, X is an X factor. Um, these are the highest quality meats combined with some healthy fats and seasonings that are available for on the go consumption, right? So here’s what I love about them. You guys, they use a hundred percent grass fed beef, a hundred percent grass fed bison meat, and they’re in their bars. And I like the macronutrient profiles of these. Why? Because they add things like coconut oil and GUID to bump up the fat profile of these bars, which in turn makes them more moist. And I know we hate that word, but in reality, there’s no other word to describe it. These are moist meat bars instead of like jerky or other meat bars that are kind of tough and dry.

These ones have a lot of flavor and the texture is so much better. It’s soft and chewy. Um, and you’re getting the highest quality ingredients in these. Now there is a little bit added sugar, but there’s only 10 total grams of carbs per bar. And you know, four to six grams of net carbs per bar. So it’s still low, low carb, you know, high quality protein, high quality fat, and these bars. And that’s what I love about them. DNX bars, go check them out on Amazon prime. And sometimes they might be available in your whole foods.

Our next show sponsor is organic five. These guys, I have actually met the owner, drew cannoli through a mutual friend, Sean Stevenson, as you know, he’s a good friend of mine from, uh, the model health show, which is one of the top health, fitness podcasts out there. Um, he introduced me to the drew can only through a mastermind group and I’ve seen these guys everywhere. And here’s the thing. You guys I’ve used powdered green products for years ever since my fit to fat to fit days. I’ve had one of these almost every single day. Cause I understand the benefits of these and I don’t like juicing, right? I don’t like the mess. Um, the cost of it. And that’s why I love these powder greens. Cause you can take them with you on the road. And so I was introduced to Organifi and I’ll be honest with you guys, powdered greens.

They do not taste good, right? The majority of them, you taste them and you just got to Chuck it down. Now for me, I’m the type of person that knows how beneficial it is. So I’m just going to chug it. But other people out there, they cannot stomach the flavor of these. And so that’s why I love about Organifi. Every single person that’s told me, you know, I just don’t drink powdered greens cause they taste disgusting, likes or get the taste of Organifi. They do a great job at making it taste good. They don’t add in sugar additives. They use coconut and ashwagandha and they infuse it with that. And that’s what makes it, I think tastes so good. But um, they do a great job of making it taste good. Cause I don’t care how something hell how I don’t care how healthy something is.

If it’s, if it doesn’t taste good people, aren’t going to drink it. So Organifi does a great job of that. You guys, and they come and single serving packets that you can bring with you on the go. And this helps me upgrade my nutrition and my immune system when I’m on the go. And so that’s what I love about organic. If I, and for my followers, you guys, you get 20% off. They’re giving 20% off to everybody that uses the code fit to fat to fit. Uh, if you go to organifi.com, that’s O R G a N I F i.com use the code fit to fat, to fit for 20% off, the link will be in the show notes. You guys, you go there, you use the code, you get 20% off and I promise you, you will enjoy finally the taste of these powdered greens and you get all the benefits and the micronutrients from juicing, but, uh, you know, less than half the costs and without the mess. And it’s so much more convenient to take with you. So organifi.com use the code fit to fat, to fit for 20% off.

All right, our next show sponsor is four Sigmatic. Now let’s talk about magic mushrooms. Okay? I’m not talking about, uh, the shrooms that are a hallucinogen that are gonna make you trip out. I’m talking about the benefits of real mushrooms, um, with science backed facts that have been used by indigenous populations for centuries, right decades. And these people have been using this, uh, not technology, but these, the benefits of these mushrooms for thousands and thousands of years. And it’s been backed up by, by recent science. That’s what I love about four Sigmatic. You guys, they’re such a unique product, right? You got people like Tim Ferriss talking about them. You got people like Sean Stevenson talking about them. And they’re so awesome because they have figured out a way to extract the benefits and the nutrients from these mushrooms into a powder drink mix. And they, um, and they, you can edit your coffee.

Like for example, my favorite product of theirs is the lion’s mane, mushroom coffee. And basically you add it to hot water and you mix it up. Eight gives you the most, uh, ultimate brain boost, plus a little bit of caffeine from the coffee, not a ton, right? But enough to give you a brain boost, plus that, pick them up from the caffeine. It’s a great combination. And they have so many of these other unique products. They got quarter steps and they got Rishi and chaga, all different types of mushrooms that have been backed up by science for so many health benefits. So many different applications that you can use, you know, increased immune system, um, cognitive function, uh, mental clarity, so many other benefits to using these mushrooms in your diet. You guys, we have a lot of us let’s face it. We don’t eat a lot of mushrooms here in America.

And so you get the benefits of this through this company, four Sigmatic, they use a dual extraction process to get the maximum benefits and nutrients from these mushrooms. And, um, and then they make it into a powdered mushroom drink, right? And this is the way indigenous people have been drinking mushrooms for years actually through like hot teas and things like that. But they figured out a better way to do it, obviously because we’re a society of convenience. So I take these with me when I travel a lot, OD them to hot water in my hotel room. So I can kind of have a healthier version of coffee if you will. Um, and I love these guys. Like I said, they’re kind of all the rage right now. They’re this new product that’s out there. So check them out at four Sigmatic. Fou are SIG, M a T I c.com for slash fit.

If you use the word fit for 10% off, um, you can use that discount for, um, the next on your next purchase. So check them out. foursigmatic.com for slash fit. Try the mushroom coffee, try the core steps. Tried the lion’s mane. Um, so many different products. You guys, even my kids love the mushroom cacao, uh, hot chocolate, right? Um, it tastes just like hot chocolate to them. I just warm up some, uh, unsweetened almond milk. I add the, the, um, the, sorry, I add the, um, hot cacao, uh, mushroom hot chocolate in it and that my girls love it. They really do so. Check it out. foursigmatic.com forward slash fit. Alright, let’s go hang out with them.

Oh, welcome to the show, man. How are you doing today? Thanks man. Thanks for having me on. Hey, you’re doing great. It’s my pleasure, man. And, um, I’m really excited to have you on, because I’ve heard about you and the four Sigmatic brand for a while now. And, uh, just a little quick backstory. I remember, um, when I first heard about you guys, I think it was from my buddy Shawn Stevenson, who has an awesome podcast, by the way, I’m sure pretty much all my followers listened to his podcast as well. And I remember hearing a sponsor ad for it and I’m like, man, I gotta check this stuff out. And so I went on Amazon and purchased a bunch of it and, uh, the lion’s mane. Wow. Especially in the coffee, I like my coffee strong and the lions and it was something I’ve never experienced before.

And so I started doing more research on you guys and just became impressed. And then, you know, through the grapevine of, um, you know, knowing different people, uh, Mary from, uh, fat fudge introduced us. And so I’m really glad that, um, we’re able to get you on the podcast, man, because I feel like this is, uh, what you do with your brand is something that is so unique and it’s not just another protein powder, for example, or another branch chain amino acid product, right? Yeah. It’s something that’s different. Yes. New to our culture, our society. And so, but it has been around for years and I know we’ll get into all of that, man, but, um, can you start out a little bit with, um, your background, you grew up in Finland, right? Yeah. Well, and then your, uh, I don’t know how many generations former though, but could you talk about a little bit about your background?

Yeah, totally. And it’s honored to be on by the way. Appreciate it. Love what you do and thanks to Mary and Shawn for connecting us. Yeah. My background is I’m a 13th generation family farmer out of Finland and, um, yeah, my dad was an acronym. So, uh, essentially, uh, well studied farmer. And then my mom taught physiology and anatomy, two nursing teachers. And my first degree was in chemistry. I went to an environmental school, kind of like a forging school that my great granddad started. And that’s kind of where my heritage is. The naughty culture, foraging, farming, all that stuff. And through my mom, obviously learning, taking her classes pretty early on understanding physiology and by random accidents ended up finding a rare mushroom growing and thin then and winning an innovation award. And also through random accidents. I, myself wasn’t, didn’t become a pro athlete, but some of my friends did. So I was helping out over a decade ago already pro athletes, predominantly soccer players on, on just nutrition and being able to work with a lot of athletes. And now

Increasingly just us everyday humans like myself.

Yeah. Okay. So let’s back up a little bit. Uh, what sports specifically, were you, were you into soccer?

Yeah, soccer is, it was the big thing. My mom would allow us play hockey, which was, which is the number one sport in Finland, but a soccer is probably the close second. And then, um, but I was allowed to play floor ball, which is a really funny sport, but it’s essentially like indoor hockey. So without the skates and then the stick Sam are a little bit lighter and instead of a puck, you use a kind of a ball. Um, but those were the two main sports. And then later got into long distance running, um, trail running marathons and whatnot, but the original background was soccer.

Okay. So let’s talk about this accident of how you discovered this mushroom. Can you tell us the story of how it was accidental and what happened?

Yeah, I mean, I mean, on a, on a high side, you can always say like, Oh, it was meant to be in this house, but in, in to keep it 100 a day, it was not like that. So I was, I got out of the army, we have to go to the military. So I was in the air force. I had all this background of farming, natural health, whatever. And, but, and it had already made, I had two degrees. So I had already done before the army had a degree in chemistry. I was like, I didn’t know what to do when to college do, you know, just get an undergrad, whatever, but it was bored, totally bored on a class with my friend who came from the same area as me. And he knew a lot about forest. And I knew something about, um, through my dad as well for forest keeping.

And we do about this ecosystem. Now we’re kind of geeking out, but there’s this rare mushroom called macho talkie, which is essentially like, almost like the truffle for the Japanese. The most expensive culinary mushroom has some health benefits to it, but more of a posh culinary thing. And we knew that where we grew up in this countryside had the same ecosystem as that area where that mushroom grew. So out of a total joke and a theory, we just applied to an innovation contest. And, um, we had this kind of in that it grows there. We didn’t know at that point, we didn’t know how much grows there. I, we didn’t know exactly the details, but, uh, essentially we into this innovation contest day, studied it deeper and got into it. And they were like, yeah, you guys are onto something. And then gave us a bunch of money and wanted us to start a company.

But essentially we were, neither of us was passionate about the culinary side. We’re both more into the physical performance side of things. So that business is still run by a university. I believe. So it’s still out there, but we, we gave it away for free. So we didn’t, we didn’t exit or anything. We didn’t, we didn’t do a startup exit or like millionaires that at the age of 20, nothing like that. So, um, but that was how kind of got into the world of mushrooms, but the world of physical performance and health in general, that came up way before growing up with that, our farm. So,

Yeah. Okay. So then what you in the science of mushrooms from a performance perspective?

Well, you actually kind of set started the pod with that is, is that, you know, there’s a lot of focus on macro nutrients, you know, and, and, you know, I literally started studying nutrition in the eighties and since then we’ve had like how fats were bad and now they’re good. Harvests are good and now they’re bad. But if you, if you break it down, if you look at just the fundamentals, all that we need macro nutrients, we can live without them. They’re macro because we all need all of them, not just one of them, but there’s, that was that point when just fine tuning your macro, you know, it doesn’t get you further away. So then, you know, at the end of nineties, I started noticing the emergence of micronutrients. So vitamin D became a big topic again. So not just vitamin C, but also the other ones, zinc, magnesium people, magnesium supplements started getting Poplar.

But then we also realized that there is a category of nutrients that are, it doesn’t fall into either of these categories. And I already early on realized that there is this deeper level of attrition and intelligence, anything from fermented foods and good bacteria to the fungal fungi medicine. And it was just something so complicated and so advanced. And I was always wanting to know the most advanced stuff. And I just thought that fungi is probably the most advanced and most complex and oddest thing that I’d had found. So that fascinated me. And then another why I got into it was quarter step. So it was a, it was a mushroom that I noticed immediately taking natural remedies for many, many years. It was always frustrating that you would take them five, six, seven, eight weeks before you started noticing results. It’s like maybe somebody who starts exercising and they’re like, first few weeks, you know, you might even gain weight because your inflammation goes up and you’re like, frustrated.

Like I can’t do this, you know, it’s like, you just got to keep to it and you will start noticing benefits. But with quarter steps, it was like instant. It was like 15 minutes later. I was like, while I was going out, kinda like, uh, uh, I had not tried lion’s mane at that point, but kind of what you described with lions, man, he’s like, I was like, Whoa, like, this is, this is different. This is not, this is not your branch chain, amino acid. This is not your Omega three. This is something different. Like I need to learn everything about this.

And so how was it, was it in a pill form back then? Or what, how were you taking cortisone back then?

Yeah, I was buying it from, I was living overseas, so I’ve lived in like eight countries and whatever. So I was living in Switzerland, just moved to Switzerland from Paris and I was living there. I ordered it from ihub.com cause they had a good international shipping. So if you have listeners abroad, I heard was like, I still, I think still is the bomb because he gets through all the customs. I don’t know how they could do it, but they just go under the radar. And, uh, I got, I bought capsule from this company and a mushroom science, which I still think is a solid company. So, and I would open the capsules at that point. I already knew I’m not taking capsules. So I was opening up capsules and mixing them in first thing. And then, then with hot water and quite soon after figure out the coffee thing. But at that point I didn’t drink any coffee. So that came a little bit later. So smoothies and just green smoothies with a mushroom extracts.

Was there already science out there about quarter steps and what it does or is this just kind of a self experiment that you did and you noticed, wow, this is really powerful stuff. Why isn’t anybody using this? Or was there science that you kind of were researching back then?

Well, and Impala mad on a, like later I figured out there was tons of research, but it was like, who goes to pub med and searches, odd, odd mushrooms name with their Latin names. So like there was like, I knew couple people that were a little bit talking about it. There was like, um, David Wolf had talk about couple of these mushrooms. I knew from traditional Chinese medicine about Rishi. That’s how I kind of fuck her out quarter sips as well as through a traditional Chinese medicine. But the quarter sip specifically was that I was doing marathons at that point. And I had heard the story of the 93 Stuttgart world championships where few Chinese runners broke the world records on, on 10 K breaking, the 30 minute limit, which was like this magical limit for women. And they broke in and everybody was like, yeah, Chinese doping for sure.

And they got, they got arrested multiple times. Like, no, they always tested clean. So everybody was like, what’s going on? They were like, yeah, quarter sips and then more and more endurance athletes. So there was some people, um, maybe like a year after that, I want to say your two years, maybe two years after I started using cordyceps, there was a story on Tim Ferriss’s blog about ritual. It was a great guy, did some Altron and using cordyceps and those like gradually more and more information came out. But when I started, it was through traditional Chinese medicine and just the concept of core deception for lung health.

So let’s get into this a little bit, um, about the difference between the quarter steps that are in these pill form, right. And, uh, you would open up the capsules and just put it in your smoothie or whatever. And then the dual extraction process that you guys use for your, for your products and what the difference between those are nutritionally. Is there any difference or could feel just go by quarter steps in pill form, it’s the same thing.

It could be the same thing. So, and you can put anything in, in a pill, so you can put sawdust us a bill and some companies do. I know what you’re getting after. So, so, so, so in theory, there shouldn’t be a difference, but in, in reality, there is a big difference. So most supplements, mushroom supplements, actually not even mushrooms, they’re mushroom mycelium, which is, you know, it’s good, but it’s has, you know, three to five times often less of these medicinal compounds, especially these most studied compounds called Paul. His sock writes and beat the glucans, which are complicated. So we can go later into them if we want, but these immune supporting benefits and, and essentially the, they, they are less potent than if you would make them cook at home often. So, so that was one thing. And then the second thing is that I would buy both capsules and tinctures.

So tinctures or those little alcohol bottles that you see in natural product stores with all kinds of herbs. So essentially they’re alcohol extracted. So there’s two kinds of benefits in these mushrooms. And some other things like roots is one is a water soluble and other is fat-soluble and alcohol will extract the fat-soluble as well. So, so overly simplistically, if you take the water extra hot water extract, that capsules that I would take, they’re good for your immune system. And sometimes circulation, whereas the, the, at the alcohol extract that to tinctures would be good for your hormonal balance. And so I would buy both and later on, maybe like a couple of years ago, figured out that, okay, you can have both and it’s called dual extraction. And I believe we were the first company in the world to offer them in these powdered forms. So duel extract the product. So we would combine both. So you don’t have to buy both products separately cause they’re very complimenting benefits, but they were just not commercially available.

Okay. And then how did you discover that process? Was it just, um, cause you guys said you were the first ones that did it, were you reading about it or did you guys kind of, I don’t know when you’re, you know, uh, scientists discover this or say, Hey, you can do, you can do this, uh, you know, in one and put it into one product, uh, instead of buying them separately, how did you guys, how would that go?

Well, I have used both of them and separately and I had read about their separate benefits. So I understood the difference. And then I saw a couple people in natural health starting to make them at home. So it was actually a Finnish guy, shout out to Jaco and Jaco Jaco was making it at home, just, you know, went to the forest, picked up mushrooms that the whole process took several weeks for him to kind of prepare it, but he was doing it and, and in a liquid form. So in a dropper and that kind of a, and Jaco is actually one of our early advisors. So I guess, you know, a Finnish guy who was a paratrooper who went to the forest and picked up mushrooms, he gets a lot of credit for figuring that out. And then, you know, the rest was more of a technical stuff on how just to actually make it happen commercially, but original inspiration in Jaco must kit a lot of that credit.

Okay, cool. So, um, let’s, let’s also talk about the difference because I know someone’s going to ask me the difference between culinary mushrooms like portabello and the mushrooms you find in the stores. Why not to see those versus these ones? You know, I know someone’s going to ask me eventually that, so I’m sure you get asked that all the time, but let’s tackle that question if you’re okay with it.

Yeah, totally. I mean, we have to, it’s probably one of the most common questions. So, um, look, there is huge quality differences with any product. If you take Omega threes, it’s, there’s a big difference. Where does they’ll make a three come from? You know, and what’s, they’ll make a three to six or make it three and six and nine ratio or the acids what’s the amino acid profile. So mushrooms are not any different. So quality matters and they’re, they’re very drastically different. So especially you have to understand that mushrooms or fungi it’s in its own kingdom. So they’re not plants or like a subgroup of plants. They’re their own kingdom, same way as animals are a kingdom. So you can compare, I give the example of a Chihuahua and a blue whale. Like technically they’re even in the same family of mammals, they’re not just two animals, but there’s two animals in the same family, but is so different.

You know? So the same way you have to think about fungi. And a lot of fungi is invisible. A lot of fungi is like, so it’s everywhere from making beer or wine to making blue cheese or whatever you need. You need fungi and a lot of different ways anyway, I to crass, but to the point of culinary mushrooms versus these medicinal mushrooms or healing quote unquote superfood mushrooms is, is that overly simplistically, the culinary mushrooms like your portabella, but a mushroom that you find in a normal grocery store are like, think of like vegetable substitutes. So they are like, instead of veggies, you can also have them in your diet. They have some protein, some of them are even a complete protein. So they have some protein they’re not in the level of, uh, of meat or something they’re very high, but you will get several grams of good, good, easily absorbable protein out of them.

They also have fiber and insoluble fiber good for your gut. And some minerals from more of the like Irin and some of them, depending on how they’re cultivated, vitamin D so plant based source of vitamin. So, so those might be the reasons why you take it now, the problem is that some people are allergic to them. Some, they also have some of these mycotoxins so some people, and for example, if you have candida, which is a fungal disease, you can really have them. So it’s like, um, maybe not the most hypo allergenic. So it’s a little bit like fermented soy or something. I don’t know, like something that some people can take, some people can take, but there is health benefits to some people. Now these, they grow on the ground. Whereas these medicinal mushrooms that grow on trees and they have, they then have, they don’t really usually have a lot of them don’t have protein, for example.

So they don’t have the MOC macronutrients that we talked in the beginning, but they have some of these micronutrients minerals and vitamin D. But the most important part is these very fascinating fungal medicine that they contain. And the interesting part is that people really can be very few people can be allergic to these. They sued on a diet from a paleo to vegan and, and they have multiple health benefits from blood sugar management, immune modulation. So helping your immune system to God health, to even weight loss and brain function. So there’s multiple different benefits they offer that you necessarily don’t get from just eating more protein or getting fiber, I guess this is an interesting question, but how are these discovered if they

Were just on trees, you know, for medicinal purposes? I mean, they’ve been around for, I mean, uh, you know, different, um, uh, societies have used them in different cultures for thousands of years. Right. Do you know any of the story of how they were discovered as a medicinal? Like did people just try and eat them at first and mean because isn’t there a certain type of enzyme that allows you not to be able to break these down if you just ate these muscles?

Yeah. You have to cook them. So, um, we can probably assume that they were discovered, um, post discovery of fire. So look, nobody, nobody, really, a lot of this ancestral health ancestral stuff, um, is still like, we, we really don’t know we’re still casing a lot of that stuff. What we, what we do know is that after example, cave paintings would have these mushrooms in them, some of these medicinal mushrooms and some of the psychedelic mushrooms. So we know that indigenous cultures would have used them somehow who figure out them. We don’t know, but here’s the kicker is, is that we, for example, have discovered this ice man in the Austrian Alps called OZO. If you’ve heard of they, the, there was a guy who like a prehuman, um, that was just caught, left in the ice frozen and discovered in a pretty good condition.

And we found two of these medicinal mushrooms with him and let’s see, or chill. Um, this prehuman that we discovered was carrying this mushroom and then the other one is very antiviral and, and good for your gut. And apparently he had warms. So one theory is that he used them for, for worms and probably just cook them. I don’t know why and how figure it out. And the other is called Tinder mushroom. That is good for making fire. So the other theory is that a couple of these mushrooms are really good for fire making and carrying fire. So that might be a way how they’ve somehow just seemed that it’s a great fire starter and this other mushroom never really burns. So using those together as a, as a way of carrying fire and starting fire might be another way how it was originally discovered. But the most longest documented use of very systematically was, was the Chinese and then followed by probably the Japanese. So a lot of the mushroom names, she talky talky talky at the end is Japanese is Japanese and means mushrooms. So a lot of it’s Oriental documented use, but if you look at cave paintings, it goes around the world for a longer time,

Man. That is, so that is so interesting. Interesting. What is the name of this uh, prehuman that you said? Uh,

Yeah, it’s spelled out two different ways. So it’s, it’s all, all T uh, is that I L or, or then, um, kind of like the other ways, like you have the old with the old louts, uh, you know, T said, I, but if you just look at, um, man Alps it’s, he’s one of the only people that have ever discovered it was an in 1991, it it’s all ups. And that’s how the it’s kind of like between Italy and Austria, I believe in that Austrian side. And, and they hear out a lot of stuff. How pre-humans are Eisman lived because of this guy that they found in a pretty good condition, obviously ice can, um, you can freeze your eggs and your sperm, so you can also keep a human being in ice for a long time and it stays in a pretty good condition.

Yeah. So that’s interesting. So the Chinese and Japanese, um, with these mushrooms, medicinal mushrooms, they would use them in tea form. Yeah,

Yeah. Teas and soups. So a lot. And also that’s how a lot of chefs use them is like, you have to apply heat and fats to them usually to make them bioavailable. So a lot of mushrooms are sauteed in butter or mating soups, but teas or, um, Oh, why you call it decoctions and then, uh, soups or the most common way of using mushrooms. Again, if you forge for food, if you’re out looking for food, it’s hard to get calories actually. So those macronutrients, so some of these mushrooms, um, first the culinary ones, and later these medicinal ones were just thrown into foods because of a supplying energy. So

You founded this company in 2012, right? Four Sigmatic. What does four Sigmatic mean? Yeah.

It’s like the most Kiki name ever, but it means that we only focus on the 50 most research foods in the world. So no hype, but just things that have the mouse amount of actual whole foods that have the most amount of research. Some of the top 50 list is pretty predictable, such as like number three is roughly the lemon. You know, a lemon is one of the most studied foods for our health, but then there’s like surprising ones that you might not know, like Rhodiola or which is in the lion’s mane coffee that we use. So some of this stuff that people don’t know, and we just looked at the list and said, which one of these people haven’t heard of and how can we make them more popular? Because based on science, they’re the ones that we probably should start adding to our diets. And lot of the top list was mushrooms and they, nobody was really repping them. So we thought, uh, well, we’ll, we’ll be your PR agency. So, um,

It’s interesting. And I can’t remember where I heard this from, uh, it might’ve been Sean or Mary, but, um, you somehow you got connected with Tim Ferris. How did you guys get connected with Tim Ferris? And there’s this thing called the Tim Ferriss effect.

Yeah. Right.

So can you talk about that? And if you’re comfortable talking about that, we’d love to hear that story.

Is it kind of a long story, but Tim reached out to us and I really don’t know who was the person who I bet there’s like 20 people. We have mutual friends in common. Um, some like I know Travis brewer or who’s a calisthenics guy. There’s a Ninja. I know he, uh, I think he gave Tim some, I know, uh, Jeff [inaudible], who’s a chef. I think, I mean, he might’ve mentioned it to Tim, so there’s probably like 20 mutual friends. I don’t know who eventually was the one, but they gave Tim some product. He was like, Whoa, this is insane. I don’t think he drinks a lot of coffees, more of a tea guy, pretty sensitive to caffeine. And it took like a half a backend of our chaga and lion’s mane product and said that he did more work in that day than like normal three days combined.

And he was like, okay, this is something, tried it again, worked, um, reached out to us. I was like, you know, I love this stuff. Is there any way we could work together? We ironed out the details and, and, uh, he’s been, um, you know, promoting us for a while. And, and to Tim Ferriss effect is essentially not just related to Tim, but some others is how blocks and individuals can change the course. I believe Tim promoted some sardines or something, and you’ve got sold out and all the whole foods or something crazy. And, and he just has a big audience, but an audience that is really into obviously cognitive health, but productivity. And they’re just curious people and they do their own research. It’s not just like they plan to listen to him. He’s like, but if he mentioned something, people go and do their research.

And there’s a lot of stuff out there on mushrooms. People just don’t know about it. But once you start Googling, you’ll be amazed by the health benefits. And, um, you know, we were probably like solid six months out of stock all the time after we started, Tim started talking about us. So that was a pretty big chains, you know, working over 10 years with mushrooms. And every time people just like, wonder what that is. And then somebody comes and mentions, Oh, this is a thing. And then suddenly it blows up. I mean, we had, at that point, we had already landed. We’ve been on like Vogue and time magazine and Forbes. And we had a lot of cool people talking about us in the kind of like grassroots, but Tim definitely had an impact on, it’s just a common mushroom awareness around.

Yeah. And that’s what I, that’s, what I love about it is, is it, you know, for me, from my perspective, Tim is very, you know, high level. He’s like the Oprah of the podcast world, right. If he says something, people are going to go and buy it right. Or listen to him. And then from there commit trickles down and you know, my audience is more your mainstream, you know, um, middle America, uh, people who, you know, have have jobs and kids and families and, you know, they, they have their lives to deal with. And then if they can learn about these hacks, you know, um, from people like me or other podcasts that are similar, I feel like then from there trickles down and that’s how well you can make a difference with your average person, your average Joe, that is looking for ways to better their health and more convenient ways.

Right. Cause we’re a society of convenience. OK. What’s, what’s the easiest way, uh, to get the most results with the least amount of effort, right. That’s kind of like our, our mentality. And so that’s why I love your guys’ product, first of all. And, uh, it’s an easy, convenient way. Right? You mix it in with your coffee, you add it to your smoothies or just by itself. I don’t mind it by itself. My girls, my daughters that are seven and five, they love the hot cacao mushroom mix, which I think is, is a great product. And it’s a great way to get your kids drinking mushrooms. Right. Cause I never had access to this stuff as a kid, but it’s so cool to have access to it now. Um, but you guys are here. You guys are what, five years later? Um, you know, four and a half, five years later and, and just do an awesome, right?

Yeah. I mean, it’s the classic one night wonder, I guess when you work over 10 years in something and then it blows up and it’s like, yeah, Oh yeah. One night anyway. Yeah. It’s been, it’s been a lot of hard work and I’m learning, making a lot of mistakes, but right now I can clearly see that more and more people are getting into the world of mushrooms then obviously for us as well, we’ve had to learn to make better and better products and easier, easier products. Like all our first products were not as easy to use. So right now, if you can have like the hot, hot cow, like, which your kids take is, is, it’s just like a kind of like healthier upgrade, a Swiss miss, you just put a little coconut milk or almond milk with it or whatever. And you make them a like hot chocolate drink and it’s healthy. And they don’t, I personally I’m biased, but I think the flavor is good. So the kids will like, Oh, I like this. You know? So,

Yeah. And so I’m curious to know your routine with taking the mushrooms. What is your daily read? Cause you guys have so many products, how what’s your daily routine and which ones do you take?

Yeah, that’s a hard one because I’m constantly experimenting. So I’m making new products and testing. So, um, I’m always trying something new that is not yet out there, but that’s not a lot of value to you guys listening. So I’m trying to kind of summarize how I would take it if we will not have new products on. So I approach medicinal mushrooms is like I approach darkly figuring. So I’m not saying is that these fungi are a cure. All I’m not saying is that they’re like super food that is better than anything else. No I’m saying is like, they should be a part of a well rounded diet, same way as good bacteria. And those, for example, those dark leafy greens and the same way as I’m not eating spinach every day or kale every day or nettle everyday, I kind of rotate. I try to get different kinds of, they all have chlorophyll.

They all have minerals, but they’re slightly different. So I want to get different kinds of fungi, a little bit top fungi, but I’m not eating lice, iceberg lettuce. So I rarely eat butter mushroom or Boda Bella mushroom, same way as I rarely eat light Burke letters, but I vary between a rugala and spinach, you know, during different meals. So same way I use my talky talky, chaga, reishi. Now we can get complicated because some of these names are like odd. You’re like, what is cordyceps? So, so if you’re in doubt, I recommend just starting with two mushrooms, which are chaga and Rishi and chaga in the morning. So it’s C H a G a and then Rishi in the evening, which is also in the cinnamon hot chocolate, uh, your, uh, your girls take. So, um, those are the kind of the two starting points received.

The evening. One is a common grounding mushroom also known as kind of the queen of the mushrooms. And then chaga is the King of mushrooms. It just more lowers inflammation, um, helps with gut health. They’re both very antiviral antibacterial, and you can start with those for the first month or two, and then look into lion’s mane and cordyceps lion’s mane is good for brain health quota, sepsis, good for sport performance. Um, so there’s different ways how you can figure out what’s your Shroom, what’s your mushroom. But I would say if you’re in doubt, start with the King and the queen, cause they have a huge amounts of research they’re similar and different enough. So they get similar benefits in the evening and morning, but also different benefits evening and morning. So I would say, and doubt and look like I’m not trying to reinvent the wheel.

So even if I have access to a mass immense pool of different kinds of mushrooms and natural products, I still go back to the basics. And there is this few group of these adaptogenic herbs and medicinal mushrooms that I keep taking, no matter how advanced quote unquote I get and more complicated, my stuff gets sometimes I still go back to the basics. So that’s your, that’s your deadlift, your burpee, your squat, your pushup pull up like the fundamental moves in exercise or in health in general is like, those are my fundamental, Herb’s my fundamental message.

Gotcha. So, um, yeah, cause the way I use it is, uh, you know, for me, you know, and I don’t really know what the best way to do it is, but I like how you said you mix it up just like you do with your vegetables. You’re not eating spinach and kale every single day over and over and over again. It’s good to mix it up. Um, you know, for me, I like the chaga with the lion’s mane and my coffee first thing in the morning, and then I’ll go and mix the quarter steps as a pre-workout. Right. And then, uh, the Rishi for later on at night, um, sometimes I’ll just, I’ll have it mixed in with my tea. I’ll do some herbal tea as well. And I don’t mind it actually really like the taste. Um, you know, some of them, I think some people might not like the taste, so add it to smoothies or you know, other, other, um, drinkable products like that. But, um, that’s kinda how I’ve been taken. That’s I love, I love that kind of set up, but I know you have so many, so many products and what’s cool. Is you guys on your website, have a, um, ah, shoot, what’s it called? Kind of like a seminar or a training, a mushroom training course or something. Can you, uh, talk about that?

We have a free mushroom Academy, which is like a muscle learning learning course. So it’s like a hundred percent free and you can just learn about one in one mushrooms and not just on the health benefits, but also for the environment learn about anything from, you know, psychedelics to, you know, their, like how they can clean oil spills and whatnot, but they, you can, we also have this tool called find your Shroom where you can just click on ask questions. We ask you a few basic questions, kind of recommends you one, two mushrooms, you know, based on what you might need right now in your life. But the setup that you mentioned is that chaga lion’s mane in the morning, quarter steps pre-workout or afternoon reaching the evening is the basic setup. So those are the, you know, those are probably the fantastic four, the Ninja turtles of all the mushrooms. So those, so that’s like they’re all in special skills. Um, so that’s, uh, if you learn those four, you’re already like, well on your way.

Yeah, that’s great, man. So what, um, uh, other daily routines do you have, you mentioned your workouts a little bit, uh, nutritionally. Do you subscribe to a certain nutritional protocol, paleo vegan keto, or do you kind of mix those around as well?

Yeah, I’m not a diet person not to say that diets like individually don’t work. I just think that there is more variety on both quality. So you can have a very healthy paleo diet or being unhealthy paleo diet. You’re gonna have a very healthy keto diet, very unhealthy keto diet based on the food source as well. Like where what’s the quality of what, for example, vegetables, like where does, where do you get your vegetables? And the further you go in food chain, so the meats and the dairies and whatever, if you include those to your diet, the more there is. So I try to focus on the quality and the kind of the quality Tarion mindset of it. But, um, and then the second thing is that I think you should adjust your diet based on seasons and also your lifestyle. So for example, in my life, I have certain trade shows and certain travels where for me it’s better to fast and keep my stomach really light because I think better, I will better if I’m, I’m, I’m a little bit on the lighter end and just strive to have like a big dinner or bigger late afternoon meal and just keep lighter.

So then I usually do like intimidate fasting or some kind of a lighter, um, alternative. Whereas if I’m more at home, I will mix it up and include. And also my exercise berries then. So if I’m traveling, I exercise differently than if I I’m home and I can do whatever I want and rest. So, but some fundamentals is hydration. I think wherever I am, hydration is an actual priority, fresh air, just being outside, even if I’m not exercising, just being in the sun, getting fresh air, um, that’s pretty vital. And then anything that kind of lowers, um, stress on my nervous system. So I nap on a nail mat. I take bats and magnesium, Epsom salt. I, you know, go to the beach. So stuff that is kind of like grounding, calming, cause it’s just the nervous system stimulation is pretty, pretty Epic, especially if you live in a big city. So just things that are calming and then few times a week, try to go really hard on exercises. Um, but most of my exercise are more mobility and calming. And then just a few times a week core, short and intensive,

You said you nap on a nail mat. Can you explain what that is?

Yeah. So I think of, uh, an Indian for Kia, but essentially, um, it’s just like a homemade it’s actual nails, by the way. It’s not one of those plastic things that you see on Amazon. Um, but it’s, we have accurate pressure. So in our skin is obviously you can feel things and anything partly from massage, but acupuncture to any kind of other forms. We have these accurate pressure. So if a nail mat is essentially releasing or calming down your nervous system, um, same way as maybe some other forms, how you can, if you look at accurate pressure, there’s other ways how you can achieve that. But it’s just the free Homewood. It’s a small mat, um, that has actual nails and the nails are really close to each other and they’re really sharp, but they’re so close to each other. If you just fall down really evenly, the pressure of your weight gets distributed on a large area and it doesn’t doesn’t actually,

It doesn’t penetrate the skin or anything like that.

No, and it never, even if you put it in a small area, it would not penetrate the skin. It just like it’s, uh, you feel it, but it doesn’t actually hurt and there’s no blood never. And it’s just the thing I use to relax, but fresh air, a lot of water, hydration, you know, salt, um, being nature, moving any form of moving, those are just kind of some of the fundamentals.

So you’re not training for anything specific anymore, like an endurance running or because that used to be part of your lifestyle back in the day, right?

Yeah. I actually actually pulled my spine, uh, like you’re yeah, it’s pretty, I was working out with the Kiwi MMA fighter in Hong Kong, long story short. Um, but um, I have, uh, I have a plan of, uh, running, Oh, we’ll see how it goes. I’m not too stressed about by, I signed up to, I stopped running endurance running a few years ago as we were building our business just didn’t have the time. And there was this run. One marathon was wanting to do called big Sur, which is in California on the coastal line. It’s one of the most beautiful places I know. And I wanted to run the marathon on my, I have a plan to run the marathon without any training for marathon. So no actual running training, doing a marathon is honestly how that goes. Could be an Epic fail. So to indefinitely, if you’ve never run a marathon, do not listen to this.

This is the worst idea ever. Literally sometimes I feel like I need to just challenge myself in doing stuff mentally it’s I think, you know, 80% of the it’s it’s food and, and movement is just like, like the, the white belt or the green belt or the Brown belt in, in martial arts. Like the real black belt is the mental stuff. And sometimes you gotta just like, give yourself an audacious call just to see how you handle it emotionally, not too often, but sometimes you just got to throw yourself like a tough one and see how, and, and when usually often when you achieve it, you’re like, okay, I’m mentally stronger than I think. And whatnot, just like it’s a practice as well, like anything else.

So it’s a kind of a mental, mental challenge to see if you could, if you could do something like that. I can, I can relate in similar ways. Like I just did a seven day fast couple of months ago and, uh, I’ve never done more than a 24 hour fast in my life, but I felt like I was, you know, pretty keto adapted. And so I could, I was doing intimate fasting already and, and it was a great experience. Right. And it was, people were like, Oh my gosh, you’re so mentally strong. And I’m like, I don’t know. I feel like I’m just, you know, we all have that capability. We all can tap into that. It’s like, do you believe that you can or not? And how strong is your willpower? How strong is your, uh, is your belief in yourself? And so, um, I’m, I’m, I’m going to follow you and see how you do on this. Cause I’m interested in not the thing I would do it. I’m not a big runner. I don’t have a background in running, but that sounds like a really interesting, cool experiment experiment, especially with you breaking your spine too.

It’s a painful word. I already know. Even when I was trained for it, it was like marathon is one of those things that no matter how well prepared you are, there’s a point when you run out of even if you are in full on Quito. Like there’s just a point when it’s it’s. I mean, let’s, let’s be clear. It’s not healthy. Running a marathon is not a healthy sport. And that’s the whole point is you take yourself to a point, even if you’re prepared where it’s, it’s, you know, 95%, uh, mental, because like, even if you’re well prepared, you will feel this wall as they call it. And you just kind of have to kind of mentally mind over body, go over it. And that’s the whole magic of it that it’s not healthy. But, um, I think the fast thing is a great example of something I did, um, like a, um, nine day liquid diet thing, uh, had calories, but anything like that off that. And like couple of times a year, I think is a great time. Just, just show it to yourself to your, that you can actually do it. And a lot of those things are not, they’re actually also healthy, but the most important part for me is like the mental came of it.

Yeah. Um, you, you briefly mentioned new products that you’re testing out. Is there any ones that you can touch on? Maybe give our audience a little bit of a teaser of things to come. Was it top secret?

It’s top secret until we launch it, but with the corn? Well, we try to achieve with, maybe I can talk about that as, and this is actually really important for anything health-related. So this is not just related to our company and mushrooms it’s is trying to be, you know, inclusive versus exclusive a thing that has frustrated me growing up. Like since, like I said, eighties, listening to the mom and whatever is that the nutrition industry, health food industry wellness industry is often very binary and likes to debate on things that we don’t agree on and put like it’s almost its own worst enemy. So instead of talking about things that we agree on, like processed food is probably not the best thing ever we start to argue is like, what’s our macro ratio like mentioned in the beginning and it’s like something that we like to like, Oh, vegan suck.

And then vegan say, Oh, paleo sucks. Whereas like there’s so many things what vegans and paleo actually agree on focusing on real food, you know, and that mindset and finding that common ground. So the products that we’re working on is how to be more inclusive. So not trying to make a product that fits to everybody, but find more products that are not yet on the world of maybe mushrooms and find ways how they consume food in our daily day basis and finding a way how we can add it there without any inconvenience. So just trying to meet people halfway and give them ways how they can upgrade their existing diet in some ways. And it still has a big, you know, a mushroom focus and, and beverage making drinks, but it’s still like finding ways of making it easier. Cause it’s, it’s often better to have a diet that is not a hundred percent optimal. If it’s something you can sustain versus trying to be perfect and then falling. And when you fall, you completely stop. Like that’s proven to be a really bad strategy. So I’m just finding easy ways how you can sneak in the good stuff and slowly the bad stuff will just go away.

Yeah, no I’m of the same mentality and there’s so much divisiveness in the fitness industry and so weird that we live in a society where, uh, people wear their nutrition on their sleeve as if it’s a religion. Right? And so it causes this division, this divided so much hate towards other people of a different mentality than there’s so much. Um, you know, especially with social media. Now you can say anything you want from a computer and, and uh, you know, if the person was there in front of your face, you probably wouldn’t say it to them. And so it’s crazy how much divisiveness there is. And I’m of the same mentality of, Hey, let’s find the common ground where we all have the same goal. We all want to be healthy. We’re just going back and forth about who we think is right. And this my way is right versus your way.

It’s so weird how divisive it is in the fitness industry. It’s like, look at the end of the day, what are we talking about? We’re talking about people’s health and trying to get people healthier instead of, uh, you know, which way is right. Cause there is no one right way. There’s no one right. Diet for everybody. And so, um, I, I love that. So thank you for touching on that. Um, we’re kind of running out of time here, before we go on to ask you a couple rapid fire questions and then we’ll, uh, let people know where they can find you where they can learn more about four Sigmatic and, uh, maybe this mushroom Academy as well. Um, so a couple quick questions for you, Tara. Uh, what is, um, what is your favorite book that you read in 2016?

Um, I would say if we focus on, on health and wellness, I would say one of the only books I actually read, new books was sleep smarter. So Sean’s book. So Sean’s books, Lee water. I think sleep is very underrated. That

Is such a good book too. I’ve read it twice now. Cause he re he has two, he had two different versions sees that he’s a muse old version. That is new version. So I read it twice. It’s a great book. If you guys haven’t read that one, if you’re struggling with sleep and you want to learn about the importance of sleep, I agree. 100% a favorite movie of 2016 or just a fate. Your favorite movie you’ve seen recently,

Um, I’m going to go with documentary, but the citizen four about Edward Snowden and I’m not sure did it give me answers as much, but uh, gave me a lot of questions. So that was a, that was an interesting one. So I believe it’s a documentary, but we’ll go with that. And if another documentary I kind of liked documentaries is, is I saw an err uh, just end of two 50, two, 15, but a Maru it’s about mountain years. Jamie Chan. That’s another really, that really, really touched me is M E R U.

Awesome. I’ve heard of that one. I haven’t seen that one yet, but, um, that’s, that’s great. Uh, what, um, what a shoe. Okay. What’s the weirdest food you’ve ever eaten?

Oh, I’ve, I’ve definitely read his foods ever. I’m going to go with them. One was the most gross, like I’ve had definitely my fair share of insects as a kid, we ate ants and living in Southeast Asia. It’s so much of that. And, and, but the grossest in Saldon Germany, I had at this like farmer’s market, they had, um, uh, cows belly or intestinal. And that was one of the hardest that I’ve had to stomach. I’ve had really gross stuff, um, like noses and, and believe it or not tales and penises, even like testicles bull testicles. And those are actually like somewhat quite delicious, but this cow belly, cause it’s like rubbery and it was hard to eat. That was probably the most gross thing I’ve had. Um, yeah, I’ll go with that.

Gotcha. Okay. So, uh, where can people find, find you on social media? Which website do you want to send people to? Um, uh, all of that.

Yeah. Four Sigmatic. So F O U R S I G M a T I c.com. So that’s the website for Sigmatic spelled same way, um, on social Instagram. And there is, if you go to a website, you will find the mushroom Academy, um, link, so you can go on and become a mushroom expert.

Exactly. And then what about you? Do you have a personal social media you want to put out there or do you not like a lot of followers?

I have a private account. If you’re, if you truly want to engage with me, it’s on Instagram. I am Terrell T E R O. Um, yeah. Um, it’s, uh, eh, you can follow them. It’s, it’s, it’s private, but if you follow me and you’re truly into it and you want to engage, that’s the way to go.

Okay. Okay, cool, man. I appreciate it. And you know, if everyone listening, you can use my code, a four sigmatic.com/fit for 10% off their products. Uh, definitely try out, in my opinion, I love the lion’s and the coffee, um, that is magical. Uh, but also quarter sepsis is a great as a pre-workout and, um, yes, you can use my code fit for 10% off. So taro once again, thank you so much for what you do. Thank you for coming on. And I really do appreciate you, man. Likewise, thanks for having you on

[inaudible].

Thank you guys so much for listening to today’s episode with taro from four Sigmatic, hope you guys will show them some love, go check out their site, go check out their products and see if it’s something you want to implement into your lifestyle. Um, I know I enjoy their products as well. And um, if you do go to foursigmatic.com, use the code fit for 10% off, um, all of their products and show our other sponsor. Some love too. If you guys don’t mind, we appreciate having sponsors on the show because without them, honestly, you guys, we wouldn’t be able to have this podcast. And so, um, organic DNX bars, uh, for sure, um, check them out and, uh, tune in each and every week. You guys next week will be another great episode. Um, if you haven’t yet signed up for my newsletter on my website, fit to fat, to fit.com.

So you can stay in the know as far as, um, you know, new episodes that come out new announcements about the TV show, upcoming events and traveling schedule those kinds of things. And, um, obviously follow me on social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat. I try and keep you guys entertained with what’s going on in my life at the time. And, uh, you know, feel free to reach out to me. I pretty much respond to everybody that reached out to me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat, all the above. So I appreciate you guys, uh, you know, all the support you’ve given me over the years and, um, it’s, it’s just amazing to me for all the amazing support that I get from you guys. Um, anyways, we will see you guys back here next week for another great episode on the fit to fetch fit experience podcast.

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