What’s up everyone. Welcome back to the Fit to fat to fit experience podcast. It’s me drew manning I’m your host. Thanks so much for tuning back in today for another great episode today I have on one of my friends, actually, he’s a really cool guy and I’ve been actually wanting to have him on for a while. His name is dr. Jacob Wilson, and he is, um, I’ve met him at a couple of different, uh, keto conferences and we’ve had the opportunity to chat before in person. Uh, he was out here at Pittcon. Anyways. He is a dr. Jacob Wilson, this guy’s PhD CSCs as well. He’s the CEO and director of applied science and performance Institute in Tampa. So ASPI, he’s also known as the muscle PhD on social media. You definitely have to check out some of the social media posts. He posts some really good content. Um, uh, he’s published over 150 peer reviewed papers, book chapters, and publish abstracts on muscle sports, nutrition, and supplementation and resistance training for bodybuilders and strength athletes.

And what’s cool. You guys, he’s a scientist, but he speaks like a normal person. So you’ll be able to understand what he’s talking about today. So here’s a few of the topics that we talk about. Um, one, we talk about, first of all, you know, his background, him growing up, uh, but some studies that he, he has, uh, published. And so one of them is, does eating frequently increase fat loss? So it is more meals per day. Is that better for your metabolism or worse? And so we talked about, uh, both sides of that. Do strength. Athletes are people that want to put on muscle need carbs to grow muscle. Uh, we talked about cheating, clean versus, um, you know, uh, eating, uh, unhealthy cheat meals, right? If you will, and you can say whatever you want about, you can call it cheat meals, you can just call it unhealthy food or whatever.

Um, we talked about that. We talked about, can you trick your body to think it’s full and the power of the placebo effect, uh, all kinds of topics. We talked about calories in versus calories out if it fits your macros, um, all these topics that, um, I’m interested in. I know a lot of my followers are interested in, so you’ll definitely want to stay tuned to listen in with dr. Jacob Wilson, but before we have to give a shout out to our show sponsors, uh, once again, our sponsors for today’s show is Everly well.com. Uh, definitely check out every well. If you want to get your blood work done, instead of going into a doctor’s office and making appointments and, uh, getting a ton of blood drawn, you can do it from the convenience of your own home, through Everly will every well, uh, allows you to go online to their website. [inaudible]

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Jake, what’s up man. Welcome to the show. Great. Everything’s going great, man. Thanks for having me on the show.

Yeah, man. It’s it’s, it’s my pleasure, honestly. And I’ve had, I wanted to have you on for a long time now to be honest with you. So I’m glad that we finally made it happen. And just to forewarn you, I am on day four of a seven day fast. So if my brain kind of gets foggy, um, that’s why

Nice man, how’s it going?

It’s going good. I’m just doing water bone broth and Isagenix ketones, to be honest with you. And actually today day four is like a breakthrough day where my mind felt so much more clear and I felt energized. I even did some pushups this morning

And it had the ketones, uh, helped compare to pass fast, right?

No. So this is my first fast and that’s why I use the ketones the first time around maybe next time we’ll do them without ketones to see how it goes. Um, but I definitely think it helps because honestly, uh, I think the caffeine withdrawals or were the hardest part in days one and day two. Got it. But anyways, I’m feeling good, man. You feeling good

Film. Great, man. I can’t complain. You know, you’re not fasting right now. Are you? I’m actually, I’m actually intermittent fasting. So I don’t eat till like, after a hello probably about two hours from now.

Okay, cool. And that’s kind of what I did to help prepare my body to do this fast was I didn’t just jump in, you know, doing six meals a day, uh, with a lot of carbs to all of a sudden seven days of fasting. I did, you know, intimate, fascinating beforehand for a long period of time actually. So I think that helped me a hundred percent. Yeah. Okay. Um, so let’s get an, I, I kind of want to introduce you to my, to my followers and your background a little bit. Um, my first question for you is, you know, you’re a doctor when you tell people that you’re a doctor, what kind of doctor do you tell people you are? What, what do you tell them? Your job description is?

Well great. Great question. So basically I have a PhD in skeletal muscle physiology. Um, I’m a scientist. And what I do is, um, long CEO of applied science and performance Institute, that’s ASPI or applied science and performance Institute to 21,000 square foot facility. That essentially it has to be honest, it’s the most technologically advanced laboratory for body composition and hearing performance in the world. Uh, it there’s nothing. It doesn’t have, there’s nothing we can’t look at. There’s no question that as far as science is concerned that we can’t look into it with it. So it’s, it’s pretty cool. So if some of you guys, if you’ve watched like stuff like generation iron, that was my older laboratory. And then now again, everything here is really state of the art. So, um, but we study, um, the boundaries of human performance and body composition 24 seven. That’s what we do here with elite athletes, all the way to just the normal guy or a girl who just wants to optimize themselves.

Yeah. So I remember I was out there a couple months ago and I was just fascinated by the place. First of all, uh, the amount of technology you guys have there and you guys work with a lot of, uh, you know, uh, high end professional athletes, right. So they’ll come out there and do some testing with you guys, right?

Yeah. We work with, uh, professional, NFL, major leaders. Um, we do all the sports science for the Tampa lightning, um, uh, and a lot of different, um, some fighters, a lot of different athletes come in through here. And, um, you know, we’re basically what is, we take the guesswork out of programming for them, cause we actually can analyze them and go, alright, here’s your weak points, here’s your strengths. And here’s what we’re going to do. It’s not, it’s not like, I think it’s like, here’s where the signage says.

That’s so cool, man. So what, how did you get into all this? What was your passion growing up? So tell us kinda your origin story of, of how you got to this point origin. Yes. Yes.

So, all right. So basically, um, I started off as a kid and like my dad always said, um, like he was always, always about changing the world and helping people. And that was always, that’s always what we were taught and he always stressed. He said education was, that was a method that we could do for that. And so he always stress education. Um, and, uh, the thing for me is when I was a kid, I must have been like five or six or something. My dad got me. Um, my parents got me like a lab coat and like a little like chemistry. So we did, and I knew, I knew from that moment that like I wanted to be a scientist now, granted, I also knew I wanted to be a professional hockey player boxer. Uh, and I pursued all three of those things. And, um, I did end out boxing and fighting, um, you know, all the way through like the beginning of college and out playing hockey.

And I went and played hockey in Canada. Um, and semi-pro pro semi-pro and in Canada and I was always a little guy like just, you know, not the biggest guy, five, eight, everyone, all the average height, there were six foot and, you know, maybe 150 pounds at the time. And it’s hard for me to put on size. And so I just started becoming, studying like, how do you do this? How do you put on size? Have you put on mass and how do you get faster, stronger? And I became fascinated with that and I said, well, that’s what I want to do in the realm of science. So, um, basically I know going to school and I got my BS degree and, um, and, uh, performance, nutrition science. I did two masters, one in, um, sports psychology, one in exercise physiology. And I did my doctorate at skull and muscle physiology came out of my doctorate.

Um, started a lab at university of Tampa for several years. Um, and then left and built this facility along the way. I pride in a couple of hundred experiments and publish close to 200 papers, books, chapters, abstracts, presented all around the world on this topic. And, um, fairly recently one young investigator of the year award for, um, for NSCA. So, um, yeah, so it’s a lot of stuff, you know, basically again, but my whole passion and this is why I like, you know, following your stuff so much. Um, and drew and also Craig stuff is because I think all three of us really have a goal to take stuff that’s more complicated and make it turn into English. Like, yeah, exactly. That’s why my origin today. Why, why would I step out of academics? I like academics, but scientists only talk to themselves. Like they can only understand themselves. You know, they speak in a language. It’s like if I went to Brazil, I don’t speak Portuguese. So I’m not going to be able to understand anything there. Um, well science, without looking it up every five seconds, scientists speak a whole narrow language and my whole contention was speak English.

And that’s what I do is like I try and complex information and turn into English so that everyone can benefit from it. Yeah.

Yeah. And that’s what I noticed. That’s what I love about the studies that you put out there is it’s super applicable stuff to your average person that, I mean, it’s so relatable to, you know, even me and other people of my followers. It’s, it’s, it’s the type of stuff we want to know, but yet, like you’re talking about scientists speak like a different language and it’s hard to understand, okay, what does this mean? This is that what they’re saying by this study? What are they saying exactly. And that’s why I love your studies. Like if people just followed you on, on Instagram, they would be blown away at the stuff you put out there because it’s so relatable to your average person. And almost everybody can understand it and we’ll get into those studies in a little bit. But I I’m so glad that you talked about that because I think it’s so important.

And I think I see that disconnect between your average person and the latest research that’s out there. And that’s why so many of your average Americans rely on the studies to be like, okay, well, what are we doing? What are, where are we going? What does this mean? Um, and they just are totally, um, what’s the word I’m looking for? Uh, they succumb to that. Is there kind of, um, scripture, I guess you could say, you know, but if they don’t understand it, then it’s like, well then I guess I’ll just keep doing what I’m doing. Yeah. So that’s awesome, man. Um, I kind of wanted to go back and talk about your, your, um, your history a little bit. You, you mentioned you studied performance nutrition, I’m, I’m curious to know what that looked like then versus what your current nutritional philosophy is. And as that yeah. To see how it’s evolved since then.

Well, you know, like a big passion of mine is like a body composition. Um, and a lot of like bodybuilding and stuff like that, I’ve done a lot of stuff with. And um, and of course, you know, you, you relating to that, you’ve made some phenomenal, like transformations in yourself and really thousands of people and their bodies. And so back then, my major philosophy was like, you know, and this is a long time ago, but the major rating thing was, well, if you don’t eat fat, you know, if you go low fat, you can’t get fat. Um, so the furnace with as many meals as you can. Um, and I think that was the, the main thing is goes low fat as you can. Um, and like I said, soca first, so as many high end meal frequencies you possibly can have and fat is evil. And I think that’s, that’s what was reigning principle when I started study.

So you were, you were a believer in that, at that time.

Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. It’s like, I can remember, like I would, I would, if I was cooking me, I would like take the special and like press the meat out of it, press that pan and like move it away, no bag. So, you know, and I also noticed that like when I dyed it, man, my hormones were like plummeted and I was like going on. Right. Well, you know, so how does that change today? I think now we know that fat is great, um, in the context of the right metabolic environment. So basically it’s like, well, sure. If I go to why, why do people, they fast bet cause you go to McDonald’s or you need a whole pizza. It’s got tons of fat. It causes cardiovascular disease. Yeah. McDonald Cisco’s cardiovascular disease, sodas eating a pizza every night. That’s from Domino’s that’s correct. However, what’s the difference is the images that I were high-fat at the same time, but when you lower, uh, carbohydrates fascist gets used as fuel and it helps repair things and it helps your hormones to be optimized.

So I think the main take home message that, um, that what’s changed is that metabolic state SAC can be very important for you. And as long as fat is, um, is not in the presence of a high amount of cars, it has tons of benefits, including satiation, including fat loss, including energy and focus. So, um, that’s kind of definitely one thing that’s changed a lot for me. Not that you can’t be in a higher carb diet, I’m not saying that’s bad. It depends on your metabolic state and what you can handle. But what I am saying is that I don’t think very, very low fat diets are ideal.

Yeah, no, I am. I was just curious because here you are a doctor studying this and um, you know, even a believer it, and so was I, and so were so many of us, we kind of just rely on the science that’s out there thinking, okay, this is the way it is. So this is what we got to go off of. And, and, uh, yeah, it, it really affected all of us. Right. So, uh, but then here we are today with, you know, more up to date scientific studies showing us that we were wrong. Like that just, it wasn’t true. And I still have a tough time and you probably run into this too, of convincing people. Look, I promise you eating fat is isn’t going to make you fat. It’s not bad for you. Uh, but people still have that mentality. Is that now?

Yeah. So, okay. I kind of want to dive into some of the unique studies that you do cause we talked about them briefly and how they’re so relatable. So, um, if we have time to get to all of them, great. If not, no worries. Um, the first one I kind of want to start out with, uh, actually is, is one that you post. So here’s the thing, uh, for all you guys listening, uh, dr. Jake, he puts these on Instagram and talks about them in depth, right. He puts them in an image, uh, which is really cool and, uh, you know, kind of a bus, some myths, if you will, about nutrition or exercise sometimes. So the first one is, does eating frequently increase fat loss. So can you talk about this study, how you guys set it up and what were the results of that one?

Yeah, bill basically, um, he frequently doesn’t enhance fat loss and I think that’s huge because I said that was one of the things that I talked about that I talked about was one of the things I believe, honestly, be like, Hey, every time I eat, you’re going to stoke the furnace and it doesn’t. And in actuality that the one thing is there is you may actually counter longterm fat loss and I’ll tell you why basically what it comes down to is like this. Um, we have, okay. So for you guys out there, eliciting say that you set your alarm for 7:00 AM every single morning. Okay. Now, um, pretty soon if you don’t set your alarm, you’re gonna wake up at 7:00 AM, right? Probably even six 58. So you don’t, you don’t, your body basically is programmed to set alarms for habits that you do. It’s just its own circadian sort of rhythm that bio rhythms.

Well, similar, we have like these clock genes inside of our, uh, insider or bodies that if I were to wake up and I would say, I eat breakfast, it’s a breakfast at seven. And then I ate again at 10, then eight again at, uh, noon. And then I, again at three 30, what would happen is even in my body, didn’t need food. That alarm would go off at 10 in the morning going Jacob, you’re, you’re starving. You need to eat. And so the one problem with, with IML frequency we found is that you set up these sort of clock genes. You programmed it to where you’re always hungry. And what we’ve all said is that basically let’s say that, for example, like on intermittent fasting, I usually don’t eat till like one in the afternoon. I’m not hungry till around one. I don’t wake up in the morning.

Oh my God, I got to eat. Whereas before, when I woke up at eight breakfast every single morning, I was like, I can’t even think unless, you know what I mean? So I think that’s where we know calories are important for fat loss. They’re not, they’re not everything, no matter what anyone says, but there are important, a very, very important, uh, component. And the fact is, if I’m eating less frequently, I have a better chance of sticking with my calorie load. So, uh, I actually think that lowering meal frequency can be one of the best. And there’s a lot of studies showing this now Lauren and meal frequency can actually be better for fat loss and high meal frequency.

Yeah. That’s so interesting. So basically what you’re saying in a nutshell is our bodies adjust to whatever we tell it to do. So if we create a habit of eating twice a day, our bodies will adjust to that. And yes, there is a transitional period where we’re used to eating six times a day. That alarm is like, Hey, it’s time to eat. But then once you get used to it, your body will adjust to whatever alarms you, you create for it. Right? So for example, I noticed that during my seven day fast I’m on day four day, one day two were kind of hard. It’s like, okay, it’s nighttime. You’re used to eating at least one meal a day at night. And at nighttime have been struggles for me. But day four, I feel like man, now my body is waking up. I feel energized today finally. And not as sluggish. And so your body’s will are amazing creations and they will adjust to it. So, um, and, and, you know, I talked to a lot of people kind of in the bodybuilding industry that think, I can’t, you know, I can’t do that. Cause then I’ll just, uh, I’ll lose my gains and I will, my metabolism will slow it down. They just they’re so freaked out by change.

And that’s the case. It says there’s actually studies where the number like Ramadan or they’ll basically intermittent fast. Um, and they’re only eating like, uh, for maybe like an eight hour period of the day, nine hour period of the day. And they can gain muscle and they don’t lose muscle dieting at all. So I think that, um, what I will say is this for fat loss and muscle gain is probably at, someone’s doing like the intermittent fasting, probably constraining the fast or the eating periods and nine hours. You can gain all the muscle you want. Once you limit it to one meal a day, I think that you may be able to maintain muscle, but it would be more difficult to gain. Um, and the more advanced athletes sometimes have a hard time putting on size, but like saying like, I need to go on a hardcore cut, one meal a day, maybe go for maintenance.

Uh, if I need to gain you pry should do to nine hours per day, eating period. I think you engage just as much muscle on that as you could eating six, eight times a day. Um, and there’s some evidence that periodizing your meat meals is also good. Just like, periodizing your training. So maybe, maybe it’s like, okay, say you’re doing like, um, you’re a one on one on mass cycle and you’ve been only eating eight, eight hours a day in fasting 16. Maybe if you went a few weeks with higher meal frequency, you’d notice a large amount of muscle gain, but then your body would adapt to that and you go then back to the fat loss nine hours. So that’s my kind of thoughts.

Interesting man, this is all such good stuff. And, and others, a lot of valuable information here for all of us to take away. Um, well, let’s jump into the next one then. Cause that kinda leads into the next study you guys did. Um, and, and a lot of people think this too, to gain muscle. You need carbs. And I know that there are studies now that have shown that’s not true. Can you talk to that? Because I know that’s still stuck in people’s mind. Okay. I need to bulk up. So I need to eat a lot of carbs too.

Put on muscle. Yeah. You know, let me say this. And then I’m going to, this is going to sound strange. Um, people ask me, do you need cards to train hard? Do you need cars to grow? Do you need cars? I love, you know, cause the concept basically is that like, um, well when you lift and, and like, uh, uh, eight to 12 repetition range, um, the, the main fuel, a large field source who uses carbohydrates and they go, do you need carbs? And I go, yeah, you do need carbs. And they go, Oh, okay. Well, why do you also, I go, you need them. You just don’t need to obtain carbs from your diet because your body can make them there. My friend basically found is that when people go on a ketogenic diet, after they adapt their muscle carbohydrates source are the same as if they were eating carbs all day.

That’s huge.

It’s huge. And people ask, well, wait, you don’t want to have carbs. How can you have carbohydrates in your muscle? I go, well, if you don’t have fat, how can, how can you gain fat? Do you know? We all know that if I already 500 cars a day and virtually no fat, I would put on a lot of fat, your body can make what it needs. And so the point is, do you, do you need to have carbs from your diet to gain muscle? The answer is astoundingly. No. Um, in fact, in, in the next question is can you gain just as much muscle without carbs in your diet as you can, if you had cards and the answer is yes. And so our lab is the first lab to study resistance strain athletes on a ketogenic diet where they’re eating like 30 grams of carbs.

A day 75% of their diet was fat. 2020 to 25% was a protein. They gained just as much muscle as if you are on carbs. And, and we looked at molecular level, we publish a study in journal of applied physiology with dr. Mike Roberts. Again, first slide to look at protein synthesis and molecular signaling stimulated, just as much protein synthesis in the muscle. And yet we also just published another paper on ketogenic dieting compared to a high carb diet and actually training with the ketogenic diet. Now you’re assuming as much protein sentences, but you actually improve mitochondria more and mitochondria is your fat burning furnace. You increase more mitochondria. So metabolically the benefits you’re getting made surpass a high carbohydrate diet. So yes, you can gain just as much muscle. Um, absolutely. No, you don’t need cars in your diet to grow. And yes, Lauren carbohydrates may have a lot of beneficial effects on mitochondria.

Interesting. So let me ask you this. Cause I get asked this a lot and I kind of want to hear your answer to this. When it comes to fat loss is a calorie, a calorie, does it just come down to how many calories you’re putting in versus how many calories you put out are you burned through the day? Is that the ultimate formula for fat loss? No matter if you’re keto, no matter if you’re eating vegan or if you’re eating a high carb diet, is it all just come down to calories in versus calories out

Short answer? No. Um, and, and the main thing is, or let me say this calories in effect calories out. And so, you know, and that’s one thing that the point too, like for example, like if someone’s eating in and their protein is, is not optimal and they lose muscle mass, that’s going to affect calories out. As sodium being in their protein is not optimal and they don’t stimulate protein synthesis as much, which requires energy. Their calories out will be lower. So I think that, uh, calories in drastically affect the calorie out equation. But, but the main thing is that I would say in short, no, and there are some people probably burn me at the stake for saying that, but the thing is, I I’m telling you right now, no, like there’s lots of studies that demonstrate that, you know, your macronutrient distribution is an important factor when it comes to fat loss.

My other thing drew that really gets at me is everyone’s like Wolf cowers. You assume that, you know, what does it matter? Let’s just, let’s say we accepted that, which is not true, but let’s say we accepted that diet in large part is going to determine how many calories you do take it. And what I mean by that is, for example, ketogenic dieting is extremely satiating. You’re not as hungry. So sometimes people will go first off. I think there’s evidence that ketogenic diet does have a metabolic advantage. Okay. Um, I do think that you could lose more fat on a calorie per calorie basis, particularly if you’re insulin resistant. Okay. That being said, um, let’s say that was not true. People go and I accepted that and they go, well, the only reason QJ diet didn’t work because it improves your satiety. And um, you know, you don’t want to eat as much.

All right. You just told me that calories in versus calories out. So the most important thing, and that this diet allows you to actually have less calories because you’re not as hungry to me. You win either way. So, you know, my, my major point is that all right, so if cars are the most important thing you’re saying Quito is at work, it doesn’t have a metabolic advantage. And yet you’re telling me that it makes you not want to eat as much in that you’re now in control of what you eat well, isn’t that what everyone wants. So, you know, I think that, um, it’s one, it’s not as easy to stick to a diet. If everyone would just write a diet on paper and go, Oh, I’m going to stick to these calories. Great. But you can. So the diet itself is going to determine your satiety and this is Heidi. And that those control mechanisms will allow you to, to follow that diet. So that’s my overall thought.

Interesting. So it also comes down to the quality of those calories instead of just the quantity. I’m kind of like if I ate doughnuts for carbs and a Chris go for fat and you know, I had a, uh, some kind of low quality protein, I don’t know,

A hundred percent, hundred percent like, you know, this, this thing, like, for example, the concept of, if it fits your macros for is, is basically like a carbohydrate, it’s a car ride, right? So they get my carbs from donuts or from broccoli, there shouldn’t be no difference. That’s false. Um, and or if, Oh, it doesn’t matter. As long as I hit my macros on protein, there’s tons of data showing that different protein sources have different impacts on your body. A macro is not a macro. Your body does determine differences between carbohydrates. I mean, take fats, for example, medium chain triglycerides, your and respond totally different than Crisco would. You know? And so, um, there are short chain, fatty acids that are in butter that are going to be, uh, you’ll have a much different ketogenic response. And if you didn’t have that, like fish oil was just high in essential fatty acids are going to have several different metabolic effects that you’re not going to get.

For example, when you eat a steak, even though steaks great, I’m just saying my point is that it’s not just, if it fits your macros, it’s far more complex than that. I think that having flexibility is great, but say, you know, my whole diet people will take it to a whole new level and go, Oh, it doesn’t matter. So the only thing I’m going to eat is pop charts and donuts and pizza. Well, you know, I get flexibility. I do think flexibility is an important tool, but taking into those extremes makes zero sense to me now.

Yeah. I think the problem with that though, is they see, we see people who have remarkable physiques doing these, these routines, right? And they get six pallets. They get shredded, right. Uh, so they’re like, Oh, well then it must be healthy. But I, I preach all the time. There’s a difference between being healthy and having a six pack or even being skinny that doesn’t equate to health all the times. You don’t realize the damage you’re doing to the insights of your body, how it affects your hormones. Uh, even though you might look great on the outside, that’s not always

Well. And I think this is one of the reasons why I will reference people to your brand so much, because if you look at you like your body, if you you’re in great shape, but if you go and eat garbage, you’re going to gain fat. Yeah. You’re just like me. You’re just like, you know, th you know, the guys over in the lab next to me, like, we, it’s not, like we don’t have superior, superior genetics. We have to work hard. And most people fall into that realm. So it’s like, the problem is you’ll have someone preaching like, Oh, you, he pops charts and donuts and become shredded. Look at this pro athlete. Right. Well, there’s a reason why they’re pro they have the top 1% genetics in the world, you know, they can tie it. They could go from, I have like elite athletes who are like in a top 1%. And basically their contest prep is four weeks out. Instead of having to box of Oreos, they’ll go to one box and then two weeks out, they’ll go to one sleep. And I’m like, yeah. But then people like us who, you know, we got normal jeans go, Oh, well, he’s doing that. And look how jacked he is. I must mean it works. Look how it’s just, you know, it’s just that doesn’t work that way. Michael Jordan can jump from half court. Does it mean that right?

That’s a true man. That’s why I love your philosophy and what you preach, because it’s, it’s very similar to me. And that’s why I tell people all the time, you need to become your own self experimentation. So yeah, it’s okay to trout these other diets, but you need to find what’s optimal for you that, so that includes testing your body composition on a regular basis, keeping a journal of what you’re eating, getting your blood work done on a regular basis as well. So, you know, what is optimal for you because different things are going to work differently for different people. And I know I said a lot of different in there, but it’s true. And so we, that’s why we need to, uh, you know, become our own self experimentation is to find out what’s optimal for us. Um, so anyways, let’s get into the, the next study. And this was an interesting one. Can you trick your body to think it’s full? So this one was really interesting.

Yeah. The introduced, so they get to stay and, um, all right. So I’ll explain it to everyone listening. And let’s say that say, I was like talking with you drew and you know, you came in, uh, you came in into our lab, you know, the cat I’m going to train. Can I have you say, you’re telling me I can’t want to get shredded. So I want to have the fat loss shape. So I tell my guys at the fuel of station, Hey, can you get drew a, uh, uh, a fat, a lot of shake. And so they get you one and say, it’s 150 calories and you drink it. And then I play a trick on you. And I’m like, Hey, drew, sorry, buddy. I forgot. I made a mistake. The guys told me that I grabbed the weight gainer shake. And that weight gainer shake was actually like 1200 calories.

So you’re like, ah, man. So, uh, but anyway, happy is that the hormones that get released into the blood from your stomach that make you hungry, the hormones that make you hungry, because I told you, you ate a heavier meal with lower more, uh, even though the calories were the same. But if I would have told you, Hey, drew, this is a low calorie shake. And you’re probably going to be really hungry after your hormones, hunger, hormones would actually skyrocket. So the point is like the way you’ve think about a meal, the way you think about food will actually determine in large part your hunger hormone response. So say someone’s like, I’m going to die salmon or diet. And I’m like, all right, I’m going to be deprived. I know that this meal’s not going to make me full. It’s going to suck. I’m going to have to suffer. Your hormones will actually respond in kind. So what the take home message is that like, when you’re eating, you can tell your, by like, Oh, I’m excited about this meal. It’s going to make me feel full. It’s gonna make me feel great. It’s going to give me the nourishment that I need. Your hunger hormones will actually respond in kind

Interesting. So it’s almost kind of like the placebo effect. If you tell yourself this is what it is, your body will, will believe that. And adjust to that, even though the macronutrient breakdown is different.

Correct. Absolutely. And that’s the thing about it is like, people will say like, Oh, you know, this, this fills a do nothing. And people say, yeah, I actually gain a lot of muscle on her or whatever. But bottom line is that what we tell ourselves impacts so much. And like, I know like when you and Craig come up here and you guys are training, like there’s a passion there, but there’s also a belief that you’re going to make games and people don’t understand that belief drives a lot of the response that we have. And maybe some of it is physiological. Maybe if I think I’m going to make better games in the weight room, maybe my hormones adapt to give me better gains. You know? So remember, as you are listening to the way you think about things drives a response. If I think negatively I’ll have a negative emotional response that negative emotional response will cause hormones and physiological changes that will be negative on my body. And so think positively change things up, uh, you know, mentally.

Yeah, no, that’s awesome because that’s that kind of stuff isn’t always measured in science and it isn’t always taught in science because you can’t really measure it. And it’s like, well, we can’t explain that, but it’s so true though. And I just talked about this this morning on social media, the power of things like positive affirmation saying positive words to yourself really do affect you at the cellular level. And there are studies that show, if you speak positive words, for example, to living things like a plant or water, even versus negative words, that it creates an impact on those living things, those organisms and, and, and it’s very powerful stuff. And people don’t really, you know, look into that. They don’t believe it. They’re like, Oh, that’s too easy. That can’t happen versus, you know, I promise you if you do it, it will make a difference. So,

No, here’s the thing. Like I work with a lot of professional athletes and I’ll ask him or her on the basketball say, hi, you know, how much did you dribble it day? Like an hour? How many, how many shots, how many jump shots you take today? I took like a thousand. Then you go, how much did you work on your mental game?


And yet in a game, what is it when someone chokes that’s mental, right? Why is it that today I’m doing great. And two days from now, I’m like, I can’t make a shot. What’s the difference? Is it that the 48 hours make that much of a difference? You know? And so I do think that focusing, we call it psychological skills training is absolutely essential to everything.

Yeah. That’s, that’s, that’s so true, man. Thanks for talking about that. Um, let’s get into the next one. This one’s really interesting too. Um, can cheating clean, right? So basically what he means by that is, uh, eating healthier cheat meals, I guess, uh, help us avoid binge eating unhealthy foods.

Great question. Great question. Um, so basically, uh, uh, we did, uh, here’s the thing. So when I eat, there’s a thing called satiation is essentially like when I stopped wanting to eat a food or when I’m done with my meal. And, um, so let’s say you started a meal and you’re eating steak for example, which I love, but like, if you eat the steak, the first bite is good to say goodbye to a third bites, good NFA, the whole steak. It’s great. But if you gave me another steak, don’t get me wrong. I eat it. But it’s the second. Steak’s not quite as good as the first one, even though it’s the same steak. And what’s that basically that it’s called sensory specific satiation. That when I eat, when I eat something that tastes good, I get a pleasure to hormones being released in my brain and it’s called dopamine.

And basically I eat something that tastes good. I get this dopamine response that makes me feel good. Now what ends up happening is that as I continue to eat that dopamine response gets less and less and less, but let’s say that drew, I was eating that steak. And all of a sudden you gave me bacon. Now the thing is that when I eat that bacon, it’s going to be like, I will get the dopamine response because it’s so different from the steak. So there’s a thing called a transfer of satiety effects. And basically what that means, like say that hour to heat a sirloin or say, we’re sorry, I want to meet a full way a center cut filet. And after that steak, you gave me a sirloin. Technically they’re different, but the, I wouldn’t get as much of a dopamine response from this Serline cause it’s so similar.

So which cheating claim let’s say that like, like I, like, I like peanut butter cups a lot. And so, um, but there are foods that are like cheap cleaning. Like nutrition makes a KIDO peanut butter cup now and they also make, um, they make, uh, the quest cravings. And so basically we did an experiment where we took like those quest cravings. Is this a pilot study? We took the crest ratings, peanut butter cups and had individual eat them compared to like something that was different, like say like a clean chicken. Um, and the one team like how much you wanted the, um, the Reese’s peanut butter cup was a less after eating the cheek, clean peanut butter cup, the healthy peanut butter cup. Then like if you ate a healthy chicken, because what happens is that like, or for example, I make like I just made a cheesecake, a low carb cheesecake.

That was actually pretty low calorie for our lab today. And a lot of the guys, like I would take this over the normal cheesecake and yet it’s healthy. It’s low calories, low carbs. So their desire to want the normal cheesecake is less. So what happens is people think that they need to torture themselves in order to get results, but you can make things that are healthy where your quote, cheating claim, and that will lower your desire for good foods. Whereas it’s like, say someone’s dying and they’re like, well, if I’m going to die, I gotta suffer. So I’m only any chicken into Lafayette or I’m going to go to Lafayette and green beans and asparagus, my whole contest prep when exposed to cheesecake or Reeses, they’re more likely to binge and go out of control. And that’s the point is like, you can eat healthy and make alternative recipes that are clean and it will lower. There’s already unhealthy foods.

Yeah, man. See, that’s the kind of stuff I love that you guys do is you do these real life situations like applicable studies like this, that people will have questions about, but no one’s out there putting in the time or effort to do studies on this. Cause, uh, I don’t know why, but it’s just so cool that you guys are doing unique studies like this, that people have real life questions too. And that’s really cool. Um, okay. The next one is, uh, let’s talk about this. One’s kind of controversial, but hierarchy tin levels. Does that equal higher fat loss or do higher ketone levels don’t really mean anything versus if you had one, uh, millimolar of blood ketones versus three or four.

Uh, yeah. So Ryan Larry in our lab, um, likes to say, should we chase ketones? And here’s him, let me, let me preface this by saying, do I think ketones by themselves are, um, beneficial? The answer is yes. I think ketones themselves can, um, and approves the tiny, I think he kinda himself may actually enhance that metabolism. I think he, as a mate or a superior energy source to other energy source that we know of, um, I think that they, that they can be anti-inflammatory there’s evidence that they could be anti aging. So I’ll start with that. But the question is, are ketones in your blood, on your diet and indicator of how successful you are on a ketogenic diet. And then what I’m gonna do is I’m gonna, I’m going to answer that question like this. When someone is like a type two diabetic, what’s the number one diagnosis for being a type two diabetic.

The answer is very high blood glucose levels. So normally if we’re fasting our blood glucose levels, maybe like 80 milligrams per deciliter to a hundred milligrams per deciliter. So if someone wakes up in the morning and their blood glucose is like 300, okay, they don’t jump up and down and do cartwheels and go yes. Like, um, um, carbon, carbon data, things are going great. No, there’s it says you have type two diabetes. And so with ketones, the question is what reflects blood ketone levels is how much I’m using versus how much I’m producing. And so say someone’s like, we’re on the same diet and someone else’s ketone levels are like 3.5 millimoles and miner, you know, 1.5. Does that mean that person is more successful than me? Maybe not. It may mean that I can use them more effectively than he or she can. And so the point is what you’ll know, you’re keto adapted based on, in other words, if you’re like, I only get my ketones 0.3 0.5, this diet’s not working for me.

No, it might mean that you just utilize ketones. Great. And what’s going to tell you if you’re adapted is do you have clarity? You know, are you focused, is your performance grade? Um, you know, and that’s going to tell you if you’re adapted. So do I think ketones are amazing? Yeah. I think they’re most efficient fuel on our body, but does blood ketone levels necessarily mean that your diets you’re doing better day and someone else? No. It just means that that person might be using more than you. Now. I’m not telling you how many, three millimolar is bad. Maybe you produce a lot and use a lot. I’m just saying that I wouldn’t chase ketones. I chase the euphoria that the diet gives you.

Yeah, no, that’s great advice. So it’s not the end all be all. If your, if your ketones are, are high or it’s not, you’re not failing if they’re low. So that’s actually really good advice. Um, for a lot of people that do the keto diet and they’ll see different results on their blood ketone levels. So I think that’s great, man. Um, okay. We’re running out of time, but before we go, Jake, I kind of had some rapid fire questions for you if that’s okay. And then we’ll, we’ll wrap it up, man. Okay. And you can be honest with me. What is your favorite unhealthy cheat meal? Um,

I would say donuts or cookies and ice cream.

Okay. And you’re talking about real donuts, not like protein donuts or like pizza. Okay. And how often do you let yourself indulge in those things?

I mean, like, you know, for example, like if it’s Christmas time, uh, you know, or Thanksgiving and someone made a dish, I’ll try it, I’ll try it out. You know, I’m not like terrified of iterating like that. So I’d say usually anytime there’s like a special occasion, it’s like, I make so many recipes and baking all the time and I have like any Barnier assess like background in culinary. So I don’t like, it’s kinda like that transfer effect. So I have to do it as much. I don’t have a desire as much when we’re around. I’ll try it out.

And what’s your favorite, uh, cheat clean meal that you guys have come up with? That cheesecake sounds good.

What she say? My favorite cheat clean meal is a key. So basically I make, um, I take burgers and I make a, I’ll make a call flower pizza. I’ll cut that up into like a bine and I’ll take a big fat, juicy burger and bacon and use the pizzas, the bugs. It’s the greatest thing I’ve ever eaten in my life, to be honest with you.

That is awesome. And it’s crazy what we can come up with to, uh, make it, make it key to, you know, like I want a bacon pizza burger, you know, it’s so cool. Um, okay. Are you, are you married? Do you have kids?

Yeah, no kids. So, yeah. Um, I do have a two, um, two cats, Mercedes cats.

Do they eat keto? You make your CATSI Quito or no.

So Diego, um, Diego is actually, I had him, he had a weight problem. He was gaining a lot of fat and he always wanted to eat. So I, um, actually had him, um, intermittent, fast time constraint feeding. Now he’s getting lean, man. He had faced before and now I could see it.

That’s so funny, man. I’ve never heard of someone doing that for their cat intermittent fasting. And what about your wife? Does she Quito or what does she, what kind of retention?

It’s on and off. So she’ll so 10 minutes she does. Um, but she usually used to low carb.

Gotcha. Okay. And, um, have you ever been overweight before?

Yeah. You know what? Yeah, I actually have like, especially as a kid, I was a really fat chubby kid, even though I did a lot of sports and stuff. I have a tendency. I’m very like, I look when I’m really cut. I look ectomorphic, but my body responds like an endomorph. And so when I was a kid, I was really like chubby kid headaches that I played a lot of sports and stuff, but I just, I carried a lot of fat, so yeah.

Yeah. Interesting. Okay. So I’m curious to know if you would ever try a fit to fat, to fit experiment, keto style, to see if you could gain weight and then lose the weight, but in a keto version of it.

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. The thing is, as a scientist I’ll do anything. I, I will do anything on myself. So, uh, I’m, I’m a curious type of person and whatever I’m like interested in. I’ll usually experiment on myself that sometimes that turns out good. Sometimes that is absolutely disastrous too. So that’s why like my body will change a lot and like, why did I do this to myself? I got to see, right. Yeah. I did some pretty crazy books myself that I really wish I had. Not the best.

Yeah, no, it’s interesting. You thinking about doing this, I’m doing this again. I don’t know if I could. It was, it was so hard, man, to be honest with you. I don’t know if I could mentally put myself in that place again, even though knowing it was short term and I’m doing it for science, but it’s hard, you know, that was like one of the hardest things I’ve ever done. So

Want me to the point where like, I don’t, I it’s so hard to diet that I want to have to Sue it more than I have to.

Exactly. Exactly. Okay. So, um, a couple of other questions, who is your, who do you go to for inspiration? Who’s like your mentor,

Like for sure, a Floyd Wilson is who I go to for inspiration, like even now. So I still call my dad and ask for advice. Um, and my colleagues on my team are there. They’re really just like me. I have so many people, Ryan and Larry, you know, Ryan, I go to him for, uh, inspiration. I know all my staff I have on my staff. Like Matt sharp is like my director of research here. I got him all the time. Andrew Boehringer. There’s so many people like, you know, or if it’s like biomechanics, I’ll go to a guy in our Latin named William, William Wallace. Like anytime there’s William Osprey, he’s back. So, but I go to the people who are like really close to me. Um, you and Craig, you know, um, yeah. I’ll come to you for advice, having really good friends that you can reach out to on any time is the number one thing for me. And it, you know, I’ve been blessed and fortunate to have that in my life.

Okay. And what’s the, what’s the, your latest favorite book that you’ve read recently?

Latest favorite books? Uh, it’s really, really good question. Um, there’s actually, it’s, it’s like, uh, uh, last, uh, I don’t read novels. I just read like, um, three, three Musketeers. Oh wow. That’s so funny. I was like, Oh, this is freaking awesome. I like classic novels. I have chance to read them. And so like, I do go to the classics a lot as like, you know, it’s like a, it’s kind of like a guy’s book. They fight, they kill people, you know?

That’s awesome. I know.

So, yeah, that was probably my latest favorite book that I recommended, but there’s some good ketogenic books out there. Jason Fung just came out with a book called that’s about fasting. And I wrote, I have now as far as like a science book, that was, that was really good.

Yeah. Is that the complete guide to fasting with Jimmy Moore? Jason? Yeah, that was really good. I actually, I just had Jimmy on my podcast last week. Oh yeah, man.

Yeah. Jimmy, Jimmy’s his book, Keogh Clary. I would say it’s phenomenal.

Oh yeah. And I send people to that book all the time when they want to know like just the basics of what keto is and what it does so well, cool, man, I’ll let you, I’ll let you go, Jake. I really appreciate you coming on, but before I let you go, where can people find you on social media, your website and all that?

Yes. Uh, so my social media is, uh, at the muscle PhD, so it’s that muscle P she has Facebook. I also have, um, uh, Instagram. Um, I do do Twitter, but you know, it’s kind of a, uh, not, not my favorite platform, but, uh, and Snapchat. Um, so like if you guys want to see like stuff in the lab and me doing random experiments, uh, checking out Snapchat, but it’s de muscle PhD. Um, and again, thanks for having me on the show. Show drew really appreciate it. Uh, I recommend you all time to all my friends and people watching and, uh, you’re doing phenomenal things, man. So thank you for having me on the show. Yeah,

No worries, man. Thank you. And just so everyone knows dr. Jake puts out so much free content. It’s amazing. He does Facebook live videos all the time and he’s throwing out these studies with explanations. He gets out so much free information, so definitely follow him on social media. Um, all right, dr. Jake, we’ll have to have you on again in the future. Thanks again though, man.

Okay. You bet.

Thank you guys so much for listening today and tuning into the fit to fat, to fit experience podcasts. We really hope you enjoy today’s episode with dr. Jacob Wilson and found this information useful. If so, please share it with your friends and family. Please subscribe to us on iTunes. Give us a good review if you like the podcast, if you don’t, that’s cool. Leave us a bad review, but tell us what we can do better. We’re here to listen. We’re here to improve. We’re here to deliver, uh, high quality, uh, valued content that you guys will be able to use to better your lives. Um, and so we appreciate your feedback. Uh, also don’t forget to check out our show sponsors, quest nutrition and Everly, well.com. Uh, we really appreciate it and we’re proud of how the Manas sponsors of the show. We wouldn’t be able to do it without them.

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